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honestly we'll just have to see if this stimulus actually works in the long run, as of now i'd say its not gonna work. hopefully it will. Are you 100% confident, or just sorta confident its gonna work. I'd like to see it work out for the better and fix our economy. who doesn't?
Damn lol, you edited out the first bit.
Anyway, i have shit all knowledge about economics. I have no confidence in the plan, but only in the sense that i also don't have doubts. i just don't know - i couldn't make an informed prediction either way. All i do know is that there are arguments to be made for why it should work, and valid reasons behind the decisions made. Loads of people disagree with those decisions, but like you i'm just hoping for the best too.
its just hard to keep faith cuz you watch most of those fox news channels or read teh paper and you see alot of anti-Obama stories, and news flashes. I don't know if they are trying to create controversy to sell news or if its legit.
when did sweeping generalizations become the thing to do now?
it may not be racism but it's stupid.
most white people i know die from mayo withdrawal if they go a couple of days without a jar of it.
dont be so mayo :(
dont be so mayo :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by )(
man please stop watching fox. they are a propaganda machine and they never report anything positive about Obama. Glenn Beck is a racist asshole, Sean Hannity is the biggest cry baby on the station and has guest like Limbaugh another racist asshole on his show regularly. you think they dont want people to be against the President, you think they want him to successful. watch CNN man, atleast they have democrats and republicans on the station. But fox is a joke...
tru, they are all biased in one way or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr W.Rite
ne way.. heres my new opinion on this whole situation after some analyis and watching the news and history.
Stimulus
1. Obama's approach to fix the ecomony by accessive spending is bad, mainly because the Public, not the government should ultimately decide which companies, products, and bussineess are successful and grow. I agree with the bank bailout and some of the auto bailouts but other than that the governement needs to GTFO. I think hopefully witht he auto bailout they will design better cars that could revive their busineses and make future profits beyond short term growth from stimulus money.
health care
2. the whole free public healthcare system is good in theory, but the reason the US has the BEST health care systme in the world is beacuse of the current system. It creates competetion for profit, which helps fuel the drive to create new medical technologies, and provide superior care. IF you have the governement controlling it and turn it into a Socialist type system, the health care system could decline based on the facts i stated. these are my opinions.
let me know if you agree or disagree. not that any of us on here have any political power beyond a vote, but w/e :salute:
damn joe wilson, lol@me reading the paper this morning and seeing a citizen saying he should definitely get re-elected.
The US doesn't have the best healthcare system. It has a shitty one if you consider everyone in the country, and a good one if you ignore the millions of people it fucks over. I don't even understand how people can ignore the people it fucks over and say 'it's the best'. Imagine the number of people with coverage was smaller. Imagine 50% of the country had healthcare, and it was fucking great, but 50% didn't because it was so expensive. Is that a good healthcare system? No. You can be damn sure everybody who can currently afford coverage would change their tune if they fell into that bottom 50%, and the ones in the top 50% would still be reeling off crap about their superior work ethic, how the bottom 50% only have themselves to blame, and that they shouldn't have to sacrifice their oh-so-great care for the sake of everybody else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Y&R
You have to factor in the country as a whole, otherwise it's useless. And when you do that, the US has the 37th best healthcare system in the world.
But what's really crazy is that the US system, when you ignore the millions of people it fucks over, is still only on a par with an effective universal system. Basically the US is currently getting a system which functions as well as the best universal systems, with the minor footnotes that 1) it causes 2 bankrupcies a minute 2) it leaves over 40 Million people uninsured 3) it costs the average citizen much more than any existing universal system.
But people seem to think these factors are negligable, and that the US healthcare is still the best. It boggles my mind.
It boggles your mind cuz you don't live here...
I really don't understand why you have such a hate hard-on for our current system when it doesn't effect you one iota. I mean...is our health care so bad that US citizens are now filling UK hospitals, overcrowding them...got you at the back of your own line?
No.
So relax...
You know not what you speak. I don't care how many little facts and numbers you pull out of whatever hole you're pulling them out of.
You've never been in a hospital here in America, yourself...and got shitty healthcare...nor, do I highly doubt, have you ever known someone who has.
My daughter spent a week in the hospital when she was first diagnosed with diabetes...she was admitted to our local hospital where it was deemed she needed to be transferred to Texas Children's Hospital. She was...and got amazing healthcare, a big private room my wife and I could stay with her in and awesome around the clock care.
So, call that elitist, call it being a snob...but I'm not insulting anyone who can't get that kinda shit. I am, however, contradicting the load of blah I just heard from Phly about the US having crappy healthcare. It does not. You are dead ass fucking wrong.
Mate, nothing in your post contradicts anything I said. In fact, it completely reinforces my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Born To Kill
I've already linked you and others to the stats i'm quoting - the World Health Organization rankings. I'm not pulling them from any 'hole'.
US Healthcare is great - if you can afford it. It's only 'crappy' when you widen your perspective from your own experience, and look at the bigger picture. What is the quality of the care in terms of how it benefits the country AS A WHOLE? It's not the best, not the second best, nor third. It's the 37th best. I have no doubt that your daughter received excellent care. That's great. But i also know, through statistics and facts, that millions of people aren't so fortunate. You know that too. You can't deny those facts.
The first half of your post is exactly what proves my point. You think I can only be concerned about the US system if it affects me directly. It's totally unreasonable to be concerned about people being fucked over? That pretty much sums up a sizable portion of the anti-reform debate imo. 'I've got mine, Jack'.
So what is your post proving? This is the 'debate' so far:
I say 'US Healthcare is good if you can afford it, but millions of people cannot, and for that reason it is far from the best'
You say 'My daughter received excellent healthcare, because we could afford it'
Did you even read my post? I'm guessing not.
http://hospitals.webometrics.info/top1000.asp
That ranks the best hospitals in the world...the US steamrolls ALL other countries...
And, quite frankly, I dispute your claim that people flat out don't get healthcare here...
Anyone can walk into ANY ER and be treated for anything.
No one is turned away from an ER in America. When it does happen, on the VERY RARE ocassion it does...people are fired and the hospital is sued out the ass.
I've never seen that study before, it looks interesting and could well be linked to a good argument against reform. I will give you this: that table might be useful in refuting my claim that the US healthcare is, for those who can afford it, not much better (or even better at all) than a well run universal system. It would need more evidence to back it up, but if you have that too then that's fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Born To Kill
BUT, AGAIN, it doesn't refute my point AT ALL.
You are AGAIN taking evidence which rests on the idea that the US provides a good healthcare service to those who can afford it. I have not disputed that. The fact is a great hospital means shit all when you have no health insurance. Agreed?
People aren't turned away, but AGAIN, that ignores the issue I'm making quite clear: if you need treatment but cannot afford it, you will get it, but be lumbered with a debt, often a very very big one. If you can't pay that (not unlikely), you go bankrupt, the state pays off the hospital as best as it can, and your credit rating is completely fucked.
When you consider this, which you must, the US healthcare system is the 37th best. THAT IS THE POINT. If you can refute that, then we'll be talking.
Everything you have posted has so far reinforced my original assertion: US healthcare is good for some, but not the best on the whole. The whole is what matters.
In this case BTK is dead accurate. Your claim that US healthcare isn't better than that provided by universal systems is complete nonsense. Our quality of care and our medical breakthroughs are head and shoulders above anything your socialized system could ever hope to offer you. We not only have the best healthcare, but we have the best medical schools. People from around the world come to America for health care AND medical school. Canadians come to the US to get treatment instead of waiting on lists for simple surgeries or getting inferior treatment. Our medical innovations aren't just better... They're so much better that if we fuck that up in order to make sure that everyone is covered it will negatively effect people world wide.
There's a difference between the best health care and the best healthcare coverage. We don't ignore the millions of people without coverage. Our system is the best despite that unfortunate fact. Not ignoring it. BTK is absolutely right that you don't need insurance to get treatment. Anyone that walks into an ER must be treated whether it's a cold, a broken limb, or otherwise. What they lack is affordable long term care. There's no reason why we can't adjust the system we have to accomodate people in need of long term care on a need basis. In fact, people have already been working on it thru these co-ops they've been setting up.
Our health care is only being negatively effected by the fact that businesses are allowed to legally bribe the government to pass legislation for their own benefit. Our system is flawed by corruption. Our model for business and governing isn't inferior. They're actually the best in the world. But even the best has flaws as long as human beings control it.