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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Alright, cool. Thanks for responding with so much detail.
On certain points we're just going to have to agree to disagree (the unemployed, 'deadbeats', etc.) And with your 2% of taxpayers thing you are still missing out the problems of security and inadequate coverage. When you talk about inadequate coverage in the US and in a universal system you're equating two things that are quite different between the two systems, and your claim was clumsy. But I can't be arsed to keep on because we are obviously going to keep crossing wires and disagreeing anyway.
I accept your argument about the WHO, though I can't see the declarations of intent you're talking about on their homepage, or on the page regarding the actual rankings. Perhaps they're exactly like Fox lol.
It is hardly news that statistics are often very biased and questionable. BUT i have always accepted this, and opened them up for questioning. I welcome criticism of any study or statistic. That doesn't mean statistics are useless. My 'reliance' upon them is far less bizarre than your apparent belief in their unimportance (unless they support your views - we've taken the hospital stats without a single question raised, for example, and you have repeatedly referred back to them as evidence). Stats are always worthy of discussion, whether that discussion accepts and uses them or seeks to debunk them. Take that bankrupcy stat for example. Yeah, a bad stat, and I should have checked it. But you challenged it, I checked it, and discovered more accurate information. Turns out it's a medical bankrupcy every few minutes, instead of every 30 seconds.
Your arguments about empires rising and falling is nice, but not that helpful, really. It does nothing to argue my point and very little to aid your own. You're using it like it's some hyper-significant trump card, but it simply isn't. I'm not advocating socialism, or the destruction of capitalism, i'm talking about one service, and the pros and cons of various plans for reform. Those claims about empires could be used to argue against any number of services already in place that could be considered 'socialistic'. You could use it as a basic point to advocate the privatisation of all schools, jails, whatever. That kind of change isn't going to happen any time soon, because the issues are infinitely more complicated than 'look at Japan's history'. I'm trying to get a detailed understanding of the situation, but in this regard you are clinging to ideological generalities (and accepting statistics only when they fall in favour of privatisation). I widely acknowledge the successes of capitalism, and support them. But I am also critical of its failures, which are very real amid its successes, and need to be addressed, obviously. This is something we all agree on.
In fact, we don't even really disagree about a lot of things. You are just more set in your belief than I am. If it is possible to simply tweak the private system in such a way that all of its benefits are kept in tact and its current weaknesses are sufficiently addressed then that's great. I would support that. I support whatever plan is the most beneficial to the US. Yes, this is somewhat subjective, but it is not wholly subjective. There are facts and figures and opinions which all have a place in this. All can be questioned, of course.
Anyway, I hope that makes sense. Ultimately, we're not really even arguing that much. I am just trying to gather more information and discuss the realities of the situation. It seems the basis of this dispute is the belief that I am arguing only for universal healthcare, while you are arguing for a tweaked private system. That's not quite accurate - i am arguing that the current private system is deeply flawed (as you have said, 'duuuuuuh' lol), but I am open to any kind of change, and simply want to better my own understanding of what's best. That's a complicated process, but not a worthless one. I've learned some more stuff in this thread, got some facts straight, etc etc. All good.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
[QUOTE][you are still missing out the problems of security and inadequate coverage./QUOTE]
Actually, I acknowledged it, addressed it, pointed out the cause, and suggested a logical solution. And this has nothing to do with my statistic. 2% of taxpayers have NO coverage. There is no way to calculate who might have inadequate coverage OR what constitutes inadequate coverage.
Quote:
I accept your argument about the WHO, though I can't see the declarations of intent you're talking about on their homepage, or on the page regarding the actual rankings. Perhaps they're exactly like Fox lol.
I found their clear cut description of their "agenda" on their About Us page on the website.
Quote:
It is hardly news that statistics are often very biased and questionable. BUT i have always accepted this, and opened them up for questioning. I welcome criticism of any study or statistic. That doesn't mean statistics are useless. My 'reliance' upon them is far less bizarre than your apparent belief in their unimportance (unless they support your views - we've taken the hospital stats without a single question raised, for example, and you have repeatedly referred back to them as evidence). Stats are always worthy of discussion, whether that discussion accepts and uses them or seeks to debunk them. Take that bankrupcy stat for example. Yeah, a bad stat, and I should have checked it. But you challenged it, I checked it, and discovered more accurate information. Turns out it's a medical bankrupcy every few minutes, instead of every 30 seconds.
I don't trust statistics without looking into them thuroughly. Therefore they are meaningless to me in a debate. I accepted your statistics and pointed out their flaws. I don't need statistics to say we have the best hospitals. Empirical evidence is much more useful. Yes, statistics can be useful, but you're treating them like a requirement in a political debate, when political statistics are most commonly skewed. I'm just saying... Beware of statistics being thrown around in these debates.
Quote:
Those claims about empires could be used to argue against any number of services already in place that could be considered 'socialistic'. You could use it as a basic point to advocate the privatisation of all schools, jails, whatever.
Yes, they can. They should. And every one of the US' social services supports the observations made from the history of other countries. It all adds to the big picture. The observations are only defeated with a divide and conquer approach to the facts.
Quote:
Anyway, I hope that makes sense. Ultimately, we're not really even arguing that much. I am just trying to gather more information and discuss the realities of the situation. It seems the basis of this dispute is the belief that I am arguing only for universal healthcare, while you are arguing for a tweaked private system. That's not quite accurate - i am arguing that the current private system is deeply flawed (as you have said, 'duuuuuuh' lol), but I am open to any kind of change, and simply want to better my own understanding of what's best. That's a complicated process, but not a worthless one. I've learned some more stuff in this thread, got some facts straight, etc etc. All good.
I respect that. As I said before... Your arguments were obviously misleading. I respect being challenged into proving my points. That's a lot better than just accepting and dismissing on a whim. I'm mostly more set in my conclusions because we addressed these things in school, where we had a chance to dig into the actual theory behind the problems in the economy. It's nice to have time to hash out things like this in an academic environment.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
damn, this debate is going in circles. look we need to just find a way to extend coverage to the percent who are not getting coverage without changing the quality or service. its seems impossible but there might be ways to improve it without going into socialism. the real issue is how to do this? however, it still is an important to understand the other issues like you are saying.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Wow. At people being shocked Obama couldn't do in 9 months what the country's been trying to do for 70 years. You know how long healthcare has been an "issue"? If you are on the half that believes it's an issue. Retarded. 9 months and he's "ruined the country!!!" BWAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH lol... dumb.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Me personally... I'm on the side that's never even witnessed a problem with the American healthcare system and I've lived in the hood. Just everybody who wanted to be covered got CHIP or medicaid or medicare or some other shit and got everything the middle class got. Not saying it's not an issue. I don't know the facts enough. If it is a crisis help people but don't harm the others. If it's not a crisis don't overhaul the entire system that works for so many and change it. Those are my only concerns. Don't let it affect my shit but I DO want to help people if we can. What would you tell a person with limited insight into the healthcare "crisis" like me?
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Opie M.
Actually, I acknowledged it, addressed it, pointed out the cause, and suggested a logical solution. And this has nothing to do with my statistic. 2% of taxpayers have NO coverage. There is no way to calculate who might have inadequate coverage OR what constitutes inadequate coverage.
I found their clear cut description of their "agenda" on their About Us page on the website.
I don't trust statistics without looking into them thuroughly. Therefore they are meaningless to me in a debate. I accepted your statistics and pointed out their flaws. I don't need statistics to say we have the best hospitals. Empirical evidence is much more useful. Yes, statistics can be useful, but you're treating them like a requirement in a political debate, when political statistics are most commonly skewed. I'm just saying... Beware of statistics being thrown around in these debates.
Yes, they can. They should. And every one of the US' social services supports the observations made from the history of other countries. It all adds to the big picture. The observations are only defeated with a divide and conquer approach to the facts.
I respect that. As I said before... Your arguments were obviously misleading. I respect being challenged into proving my points. That's a lot better than just accepting and dismissing on a whim. I'm mostly more set in my conclusions because we addressed these things in school, where we had a chance to dig into the actual theory behind the problems in the economy. It's nice to have time to hash out things like this in an academic environment.
I like these kinds of discussions too. This has helped shaped my perspective and made me challenge stuff, so that's definitely a good thing. I still have some hefty disagreements and reservations, but this seems as good a place as any to call it a day, so I'll leave it here.
Peace out, good sir! :hosea1:
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
LMMFAO @ That sign! AHAHAHAHAAAAA
I don't see how THAT sign is racist tho. I've seen some racist shit against him, but I don't see it in this. It's pretty clear that they're saying health care will be degraded down to tribal witch doctors. It's a pretty funny satire if you ask me.
But yea... in general, people are acting like asses. I don't know if it's just what they're covering or if this is really that wide spread. I spoke to some republican friends of the family that attend these types of things, and they all said they haven't seen the craziness that's been covered at the ones they've gone to.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
cause a white president would look ridiculous photoshopped onto a witch doctor's body. That shit doesn't even make sense.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Maybe I don't see the racism cause I don't think like that. But how is this different from slapping Bush's face on Hitler?
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Spaniard
Is Hitler considered a negative stereotype for bushes people for the last few hundred years?
White dictators? I think it does! YUCK YUCK YUCK!!
Seriously tho... Hitler doesn't have racial overtones?? ok lol
And no... I'm saying they're both acceptable comparisons. Why isn't it wrong to slap a white person's head on a european?? You wouldn't do that with an asian or a black guy!!
Think about it... any half decent photoshop satire is going to have Obama... a BLACK man... pasted on someone with dark skin. And everytime someone does it people are going to be like "OOOHHHH it's cause he's black!!" No fucking shit!! Just like you paste white people's heads on people with pale skin lol
Point being... Obama shouldn't get a pass from this kind of shit just because he's black. Every time someone makes a satire everyone screams racism. Just like the curious george thing. A black dude that has big ears can't be portrayed as a monkey, but it was cool for Bush to be portrayed as the exact same character for the exact same reason?? It's a double standard.
So now comparing obama to a witch doctor because of his sub par health care plan is racist.
People make everything about race. How do you know the people holding the signs are racists?? I didn't realize the sign was racist. What if I had the sign? Am I racist now??
Obviously, I agree that if racists are making the signs then the signs are meant to be racist. But I'm sure that everyone that makes a damn satire of the president isn't racist.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
I'm looking at you with an "I don't give a fuck" look.
People are too fuckin sensitive.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Damn Opey I seriosly can't belive you don't see the obvious intent of this pic...
I'm not saying it's the epitome of racism, or even that it's not a little clever... but seriosly cmon...
Quote:
Why isn't it wrong to slap a white person's head on a european??
Well, which European? A regular person from Austria or Dr. Mengela?
Maybe you think a primitive witch doctor is the regular typical normal person in Africa. Maybe that's where your problem lies with this....
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Hitler???
No... I don't think that at all. I thought it was a commentary on his stance on health care... not his skin color. If it's a commentary on his skin color then it's a poor one. There's much better ways to say "Hey this guys a nigger!!" I actually didn't even associate witch doctors with Africans until you guys said something.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
im suprised you need explanations as to why exploiting and using racial stereotypes for the president of all people is wrong.
its the equivlent of all natives being potrayed as scalping apache savages. all hispanic as cholo type criminals. all asians as kung fu fighters who eat baby fetuses. all arabs as terrorists or sand dwelling sheep fuckers.
theyre stereotypes. sterotypes are part of racism.
this sure as shit aint the most racist one ever, but its obvious it goes there.
african stereotypes = primitives, superstitious, cannibals and yes witch doctors and voodoo men
which exist sure
but celarly obama is not one of them and is a modern AMERICAN man lol
so even if it wasnt racist it would still be insulting
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Opie M.
I actually didn't even associate witch doctors with Africans until you guys said something.
Well type in witch doctor in google and see how many results you get where its not a black guy or some other race posing as a african style witch doctor....grass skirts, masks and all
african stereotype
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Spaniard
how about them saying this nigger wants to ruin our healthcare? did you ever think of that?
That's why I said if racists created the sign then that's obviously their intention. But that doesn't mean everyone with all these satire signs are racists.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Bosniak
im suprised you need explanations as to why exploiting and using racial stereotypes for the president of all people is wrong.
its the equivlent of all natives being potrayed as scalping apache savages. all hispanic as cholo type criminals. all asians as kung fu fighters who eat baby fetuses. all arabs as terrorists or sand dwelling sheep fuckers.
theyre stereotypes. sterotypes are part of racism.
this sure as shit aint the most racist one ever, but its obvious it goes there.
african stereotypes = primitives, superstitious, cannibals and yes witch doctors and voodoo men
which exist sure
but celarly obama is not one of them and is a modern AMERICAN man lol
so even if it wasnt racist it would still be insulting
Like I said... I didn't associate witch doctors with a stereotype for black people. That's kinda silly to me.
But isn't insult the point of all these posters pointed at every president??
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Bosniak
Well type in witch doctor in google and see how many results you get where its not a black guy or some other race posing as a african style witch doctor....grass skirts, masks and all
african stereotype
Thats not a stereotype. That's what a witch doctor is. And they don't only exist in Africa. I was thinking of Amazon tribal type shit when I saw the photo. Obviously the point is to say that his outlook on health care is barbaric. That has nothing to do with him being black. Sure... the comparison works because he has dark skin... but as I said... the hitler comparison for bush only works because he's white. What's the difference?
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Opie M.
Thats not a stereotype. That's what a witch doctor is. And they don't only exist in Africa. I was thinking of Amazon tribal type shit when I saw the photo. Obviously the point is to say that his outlook on health care is barbaric. That has nothing to do with him being black. Sure... the comparison works because he has dark skin... but as I said... the hitler comparison for bush only works because he's white. What's the difference?
Opey do you see which of your quotes I am responding to with that post?
"I don't associate witch doctors with Blacks"
And then I show you it clearly is associated 90% with Africans/Blacks.
That post is about nothing more.
And plenty of non white people have been compared to Hitler. Obama is one in fact. Hitler isn't esclusive to whites. Dictators aren't a white stereotype.
Quote:
Thats not a stereotype. That's what a witch doctor is. And they don't only exist in Africa.
Ok this tells me you're clearly not geting this. You're making it sound like I'm saying this is insulting to WITCH DOCTORS LMAO Like "oh this is a negative witch doctor stereotype, witch doctors don't look like that".
Read the posts.
Witch doctors and cannibals and primitive tribal stuff is an AFRICAN STEREOTYPE. AS IN AFRICANS ARE ALWAYS POTRAYED LIKE THAT.
A hispanic cholo is a hispanic cholo, yes, but potrayng HSPANICS OVERALL as all being cholo gangsters is a stereotype. Potraying Sotomayor as a cholo gangster bitch is racist sereotyping.
Argh.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
I just googled witch doctor and found the orginal pic without obama on it. Most of the sites I found it on are in articles calling out various people and companies for being proverbial witch doctors in their trade... specifically about health care.
For example...
http://themachoresponse.blogspot.com...1_archive.html
This guy used it on his blog a year ago to attack health care before obama was even elected.
It's a common photo used for this exact thing. All someone did was slap Obama's face on it. He IS the face of all this.
I'm not saying someone definitely wasn't trying to be racist. I'm just saying it can definitely be seen without racism. But whether the person meant to be racist or not, people are gonna attack them for being racists just because they're so sensitive about everything.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Well ok I have nothing left to say on it, I see perfectly what you're trying to say as well, and I agree it's not all black and white with these protests, there is shades of grey.
its one of those things that can be taken both ways
*goes to sleep listening to taylor swift A TRUE AMERICAN*
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Bosniak
Opey do you see which of your quotes I am responding to with that post?
"I don't associate witch doctors with Blacks"
And then I show you it clearly is associated 90% with Africans/Blacks.
That post is about nothing more.
And plenty of non white people have been compared to Hitler. Obama is one in fact. Hitler isn't esclusive to whites. Dictators aren't a white stereotype.
Ok this tells me you're clearly not geting this. You're making it sound like I'm saying this is insulting to WITCH DOCTORS LMAO Like "oh this is a negative witch doctor stereotype, witch doctors don't look like that".
Read the posts.
Witch doctors and cannibals and primitive tribal stuff is an AFRICAN STEREOTYPE. AS IN AFRICANS ARE ALWAYS POTRAYED LIKE THAT.
A hispanic cholo is a hispanic cholo, yes, but potrayng HSPANICS OVERALL as all being cholo gangsters is a stereotype. Potraying Sotomayor as a cholo gangster bitch is racist sereotyping.
Argh.
I couldn't find any photos using witch doctors as african stereotypes when I googled for it.
And witch doctors are in tribes all over the world. Not just Africa, and definitely not 90% Africa.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Bosniak
Well ok I have nothing left to say on it, I see perfectly what you're trying to say as well, and I agree it's not all black and white with these protests, there is shades of grey.
its one of those things that can be taken both ways
*goes to sleep listening to taylor swift A TRUE AMERICAN*
Now THIS is fuckin racist...
http://images.huffingtonpost.com/200...fCCWebSite.jpg
Fuckin WOW!!
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Damn... turns out I was right for not associating the witch doctor pic with Africans. Hes not African. The guy in the pic is Australian. You RACISTS!!! You see a witch doctor and he's automatically gotta be african!!?? What kinda racist shit is that!!! HUH?? HUH???
:hosea1:
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
When I think "witch doctor"...
And/or "cannibal"...
I actually think Central American, South American type tribes...
The Amazon looking jungle shit.
But then again, I'm hispanic...
And, perhaps, I've seen way too many of those Cannibal Holocaust, Make Them Die Slowly, Eaten Alive type films.
Just me though.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Opie M.
Damn... turns out I was right for not associating the witch doctor pic with Africans. Hes not African. The guy in the pic is Australian. You RACISTS!!! You see a witch doctor and he's automatically gotta be african!!?? What kinda racist shit is that!!! HUH?? HUH???
:hosea1:
to people making racist posters (the ones who intended it to be racist like stormfront types) i doubt it matters is the black/brown skinned man from africa or australia :rolleyes:
a witch doctor is definetly a negative stereotypes of africans. OR LETS SAY BROWN AND BLACK PEOPLE IF THAT'S BETTER? It ends up the same shit when you see how its inteded and who made it. no matter what you do, you can't get around that. its the truth. it deosnt mean all witch doctors are african. not all mafiosos are italian but you already know the italian stereotype..
i agreed with you that it doesnt mean every person rpotesting ir acist, of course not. but on this specific point i dissagree.
the guy in charge of all these tea parties also called obama a indonesian muslim welfare guy or some shit...so yea
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Bosniak
to people making racist posters (the ones who intended it to be racist like stormfront types) i doubt it matters is the black/brown skinned man from africa or australia :rolleyes:
a witch doctor is definetly a negative stereotypes of africans. OR LETS SAY BROWN AND BLACK PEOPLE IF THAT'S BETTER? It ends up the same shit when you see how its inteded and who made it. no matter what you do, you can't get around that. its the truth. it deosnt mean all witch doctors are african. not all mafiosos are italian but you already know the italian stereotype..
i agreed with you that it doesnt mean every person rpotesting ir acist, of course not. but on this specific point i dissagree.
the guy in charge of all these tea parties also called obama a indonesian muslim welfare guy or some shit...so yea
lmao i was joking. I was right to not think that dude was african, because he wasn't lol That was my only point.
And that poster didn't originate on stormfront. Someone made it because politicians have actually been comparing his plan to witch doctor medicine. What's the difference if someone calls him a witch doctor or if someone makes a picture of him as a witch doctor??
And yea... I saw the clip of that guy. What an ass. His comment wasn't racist tho. He's calling Obama's policies racist. He's saying he's in favor of blacks and middle eastern muslims, pushing a welfare state while he ignores what's best for the majority. I don't agree with his claims, but I don't think his comments are racist either.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
I am all for free speech, but to suggest that this being Obamas America, and he is somehow indirectly to blame for white kids getting beat up on a school bus is insane.I mean logically how can people listen to and agree with something as senseless as this. This is an irresponsible statement. this is almost as bad as Glenn Beck calling Obama a racist. Limbaugh has gone over the edge, but this isnt the first and def. wont be the last. The racial issue in this country has been put on display since he entered the White House. Those who oppose him as a black man can easily hide behind excuses like they hate his policies. I dont disagree that some may not like him as a democrat or may not agree with his policies, but some are def. motivated that this black man is in charge of this country and he was elected by the people. I knew this country was not fully pass its racial history, and i am reminded every day by people like Limbaugh, and Beck. They have a problem with him being President of the United States. They cant get it in their heads that this country heading in a new direction and this man has started a movement to better this country. I refuse to wish ill affects toward people like Limbaugh and Beck, but i do wish that they eventually pay the consequences for their actions. This kind of talk drives people to take matters in their own hands, because they have been told that President Obama is trying to take their country form them, that he wants to take their freedoms away. These accusations are not true, and the moderate republicans, independents, and democrats know this is not true. But the far right wingers cant accepts the facts and react to false accusations about the future of this country. Its a shame and people like Limbaugh are the ones causing the hate, misinformation and racism in this country.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
So I hear Bill O'Reilly now supports a public option. Interesting.
Regarding the poster: You could argue that it isn't itself racist, or wasn't created with racist intentions, but either way it's dumb as shit, is hugely insensitive, and completely feeds into racist perspectives. If the person who made it wasn't intending to push racial buttons, then presumably they are just mentally deficient or simply a total wanker. Surely people can criticise a healthcare plan than without reducing themselves to moronic jokes with clear racial implications.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Spaniard
good job on the race baiting by Limbaugh
[YOUTUBE]vyrXQ38dT9g[/YOUTUBE]
Rush Limbaugh couldn't resist trying to connect the brutal beating of one student by another on a school bus to President Obama, using it as an example of how Obama is somehow causing racism throughout the U.S.:
You put your kids on a school bus you expect safety but in Obama's America the white kids now get beat up with the black kids cheering 'yeah, right on, right on, right on.' Of course everybody said the white kid deserved it he was born a racist, he's white.
In fact it would be Limbaugh who seems to have the racial hangup. The St. Louis-Dispatch reports that the beating was not racially motivated, as a Belleville police captain had originally speculated, but was instead incited by a pretty common dispute on school buses: choice of seating.
Read more at:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_288371.html
What a douche. It actually is a little bit of racism tho. Those kids just don't realize it. I grew up being the only white kid on the school bus etc. It automatically makes you the one everyone looks at because you're noticably different. This has been going on since way before Obama tho lol
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phlymo
So I hear Bill O'Reilly now supports a public option. Interesting.
Regarding the poster: You could argue that it isn't itself racist, or wasn't created with racist intentions, but either way it's dumb as shit, is hugely insensitive, and completely feeds into racist perspectives. If the person who made it wasn't intending to push racial buttons, then presumably they are just mentally deficient or simply a total wanker. Surely people can criticise a healthcare plan than without reducing themselves to moronic jokes with clear racial implications.
Yea, apparently he likes the new plan they've brought to the table. I haven't gotten a chance to look into the new one yet. I know it's supposed to save the government a few trillion dollars over the next 10 or so years, but I don't know how yet. If it got that bias ass to take it seriously then it must be worth looking into tho lol
And no doubt the posters are ignorant. Most of the time they are. But that just means people are stupid. Doesn't mean people are only doing it because they hate black people. I'm sure there's some, but everyone shouldn't be lumped in as racists because they're opposing Obama in their own stupid ways. Most people aren't very smart and definitely have poor taste. Need proof? Look at people's myspace layouts lol
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Ok...
I've chilled for the most part, cuz I don't wanna cause too much of a ruckus...
But I've got some photos that seriously dispute this talk about racist posters, racist demonstrations towards Obama by the conservative side.
You know, I think ya'll are being gullible enough to buy into the bullshit coming from the liberal side. See, liberals have to make the conservatives look like racists cuz to face em on the issues at hand...they lose/have no chance everytime.
So...I'm pretty sure the signs you're seeing, the racist ones...of course, not all of em, there are bad apples everywhere and the conservative movement isn't immune to them...
But they're being made up by liberals...liberals are unleashing bullshit like that and hoping you'll be naive enough to buy into the bullshit that conservatives are doing it...when in fact, 9 times outta 10, you're looking at a sign or poster that a liberal made hoping to fool you.
Cuz, here are the signs taken from someone I actually know...a contractor of mine who went there and attended. Check em...there isn't a racist sign in the bunch...they point Obama out to be a commie...and they parody him as Alfred E Neuman of Mad Magazine...but I see no monkey comparisons, I see no lynching references, no swastikas...no bullshit of any kind like that.
You cats are being had...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...p_image001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...image001-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...image001-2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...image001-3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...image001-4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...image001-5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...image001-6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...image001-7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...image001-8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...image001-9.jpg
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
Born you make a valid point and I didnt see one sign that i thought was racist either. But its the tone of the event. Its the mentality that Obama wants to turn America into a Communist, Socialist state. What really gets me is the "I want my country back" arguement. Without any liberal slant or talking points when I hear a white person say that I think, I know what you are saying verbally, but for some reason as a black man, i still interpret a statement like that meaning, "we werent quite ready for this type of change where its acceptable to have a black president", and his ideas about the direction of this country will only benefit black people and whites will be left in the dark. I dont think white people feared that when any other president was in office. Thats how myself and other black interpret statements like this. Its not the signs, its the tone. When I hear Limbaugh say to a huge audience that the entire direction of Obama is his form of reparations and he wants to get back at white people, by reforming healthcare and not continuing to hand money to insurance companies, he is anti capitalism, and wants big govt, its kinda disturbing. You cant have Glenn Beck telling a huge audience on Fox news, (and I can say whatever negative about Fox, but fact is they get huge ratings at every time slot). But when Beck says on national television he thinks the President is racist during this political climate, it sets people off on both sides. Im sorry Born there is a racial undetone in all of this. If I recall the first bailout was on Bush's watch, I didnt see one rally against it. Beck didnt organize a rally to stop the first bailout, but it becomes Obama problem and he get the harsh reaction. Its made to look like he started the whole bailout trend. Now he didnt turn down those who needed a second bailout, but if he did he would have been made to be anti capitalist, or someone who doesnt want to support the "real job creators" so we cant let them fail. Its double standards.
I for one refuse to believe that a majority of the protesters are racist and just hate Obama because he is black. But those few bad apples seem to stand out and make the crowd look hateful. Thats just how it looks to me, i could be wrong and i hope i am wrong. But from someone who has experienced subtle and blatant racism in my life, some of what im seeing looks quite familiar.
People are attacking Obama for some of the same tactics Bush started but no uproar then.
Bush spent money, Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity etc werent yelling fire in a crowded building then. And he officially put this country back in debt.
Bush had Czars, and the last report out about the number of officially named Czars under Bush was at 47, Obama has appointed around 35 or so. And for the record Czars have no power, they are advisors for a particular field. Yet Obama gets attacked daily about having the "scary Czars".
Bush was born in this country and so was Obama, but there is an entire movement that doesnt believe he is a natural born citizen.
For the sake of arguement, i will just say what if Obama did lie in his speech last week.
Well Bush lied and yes the Dems acted like spoiled children during his addresses like the Rep. did last week. But I havent seen one piece of footage of Bush being interrupted in the during an address to congress calling him a "Lie". To disrespect the position of President of the United States its appalling, I just really find it hard to believe that Joe Wilson would have done that to any other President. Not saying he did it because he is black, but some feel he did it because he doenst respect this President, who happens to be the first black President...
People dont understand why the sudden uproar. I think some, no most in fact is the economy as a whole. Its going to be a vey long time before things get back to how it was, if that is even possible. When people listen to this crap about the govt taking our freedoms and just so happens that a black man is in charge is kinda ironic. I am not afraid of losing my freedom, and this is coming from a 29 year black male living in a country that was founded and built by slavery.
See, myself and others my age have parents and relatives that grew up during the most racist time this country has ever witnessed since slavery. And they have been saying the same things Jimmy Carter and Nancy Pelosi said earlier this week about the overall climate of this country. I know its hard for people who never lived during that period of hatred in this country to understand the kind of atmosphere they are talking about. That doesnt mean it doesnt exist and shouldnt be addressed. I think it has to be addressed, or this country will really be headed in a direction worse than it already is.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
The thing that pisses me off about the 'racism?' discussion is how goddamn clumsy it tends to be, on both sides. Very little actual debate and discussion of questionable moments, but lots of 'the tea-baggers are fuelled by racism', 'oh, another lefty reaching for the race card', repeated in perpetuity. Obviously, this is one of those things where agreements aren't going to come along any time soon, but shit could be a whole lot more reasonable than it usually is imo.
There was some debate on Bill O'Reilly with Marc Lamont Hill after that Rosa Parks sign ripping incident. I guess time constraints were a factor, but you had Hill not really talking about the specifics of the incident in an open way, and O'Reilly just saying 'I don't know why you have to bring race into this' and ignoring everything that didn't support his view. That was like the pinnacle of good debate compared to what I've been seeing most of the time.
Personally, I think the question of 'racism?' is very worthwhile and totally worthy of discussion. Several incidents have made me raise an eyebrow, and I've seen a few thoughtful arguments that opened it up quite well, but they're getting lost in the mire for the most part.
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Re: America Losing Faith in Obama?
America has been at war for almost a decade now...and for what? Fighting against terror? Haha yea right... What people don't understand is that terror can never be defeated because there will always be something to fear , especially if the crooked bastards are the ones giving you something to fear. One thing the struck a chord with me from Obama was that he said he was gonna bring our troops home and end this got damn war. He did no such thing , and actually agreed to send more troops to Afghanistan. He lied like this on a number of topics. An habitual liar is not a quality I admire in a president. I can see thru bullshit politics that the democrats and republicans play. They are both on the same damn team and owned by the same damn people who REALLY CONTROL OUR GOVERNMENT. The charade has been going on long enough and people are starting to wake up....maybe not too full knowledge of the conspiracy....but the point is...we are waking up!!
